Maybrit Illner focuses on the war in Ukraine. SPD politician Klaus von Dohnanyi remembers the Second World War.
Berlin – When he hears the sirens wailing in Ukraine, says the 93-year-old SPD politician Klaus von Dohnanyi, he remembers with horror the Second World War, which he witnessed as a teenager. These words were the start of the political talk at Maybrit Illner on March 10, 2022 on ZDF. The program was dedicated to the Ukraine conflict and discussed the latest developments, including the foreign ministers’ meeting in Turkey and Russia’s military attack on a Ukrainian children’s and maternity clinic, which claimed civilian lives.
At the beginning, moderator Illner, who made a desperate attempt throughout the evening to lead the conversation through with an energetic tone and slight sarcasm, stayed with von Dohnanyi, who was not present in the studio but was connected from Hamburg. The SPD had failed with its leitmotif “Never again war”, she told him. But the author and politician rejected this and rather countered: “We tried everything, we always tried to find compromises.” Who von Dohnanyi meant exactly with this collective “we” remained somewhat open, because he went on to say: ” What I’ve missed in recent years is that we in the West weren’t willing to compromise enough.” Von Dohnanyi’s argument remained on this level and repeatedly offended the other participants in the talk show on ZDF.
War in the Ukraine: Violent reactions from Klingbeil and Merz
The most violent reactions came from Lars Klingbeil, SPD party leader, and from the party and parliamentary group leader of the CDU Friedrich Merz. “Putin lied to us,” said Klingbeil. “Vladimir Putin is a serious war criminal,” said Merz, “hardly anyone can imagine being able to sit with him at the negotiating table of a community of states.” In his opinion, Putin was shown the greatest understanding. “Despite the reluctance of the West and Europe, we are in a hot war in Europe,” and not because Putin was provoked with a possible membership of Ukraine in NATO, as von Dohnanyi claimed several times. Putin himself invents this NATO story and abuses it, said Merz on Maybrit Illner on ZDF.
Military expert Carlo Masala also agreed: “It’s a smoke screen.” NATO plays an important role in Putin’s narrative, but it is not at all true that it is spreading or even threatening Russia. “There is no infrastructure, no substantial NATO military presence on the ground, and no tactical nuclear weapons are being supplied either.” The journalist Katja Gloger also confirmed that the threat to Russia was a specially created myth. For about ten years, an “ideologization of Putin” has been developing that “we massively underestimated,” she says. “The West is seen as an enemy bent on beating, humiliating and ultimately destroying Russia.” These conspiracy tales feed Putin and promote the notion that “Russia is a distinct civilization, superior to the decadent West.”
Maybrit Illner (ZDF): Dohnanyi also sees the West in debt
Nevertheless, there will be no avoiding having to negotiate with Putin, von Dohnanyi interjected again. He feels that the West is indebted for having provoked Russia with its NATO expansion plans. On this point, the guests in the Maybrit Illner program on ZDF no longer agreed. In general, the discussion as a whole was somewhat idle, as nothing new could be derived from what was said. SPD party chairman Lars Klingbeil hid behind the slightly varied but essentially the same statement that, on the one hand, one had to be very careful about what one said and did now, because “that will keep us busy for years”, or, on the other hand, “we have to keep a cool head despite all the emotionality, because we bear the responsibility for the consequences”.
| Maybrit Illner on ZDF | The guests of the show |
|---|---|
| Lars Klingbeil, | SPD party chairman |
| Friedrich Merz, | CDU party and parliamentary group leader |
| Carlos Masala | military expert |
| Katja Kipping | Berlin Senator for Integration, Labor and Social Affairs |
| Klaus von Dohnanyi | SPD politician |
| Katja Gloger | Journalist, author and Russia expert |
Things got similarly watery and vague when it came to the federal government’s decision to add an additional 100 billion euros to the German swearing-in budget. Neither Merz nor Klingbeil could make specific predictions about how the money should be used. Masala came to their aid when he interjected that “Germany will arm, not arm.” You need to strengthen your own position in order to have a good basis for negotiation, said Klingbeil. In contrast to Masala, Merz spoke about “armament” and added that it was not just about material things, but that a new attitude had to be taken, a commitment that one was ready to defend one’s own freedom. “You can’t just get peace off the shelf,” he said casually.
At this point, Maybrit Illner returned with one of her initial questions about whether diplomacy had finally failed. Von Dohnanyi vehemently denied that diplomacy was the only way to go. The other guests were far less sure. The interlocutors on ZDF were just as little aware of the effect of the sanctions imposed. Klingbeil and von Dohnanyi agreed that measures that were too strict would damage Germany and Europe in the long term and that the price would probably be too high if the effect was uncertain.
Ukraine war at Maybrit Illner (ZDF): Memories of 2015
The decisive analysis was provided by Gloger, who, although she spoke relatively little, distinguished herself with clear, precise and valuable comments: “It is an illusion to believe that we will not also pay part of the price for the toughest sanctions pact that has ever been imposed on a state.” The consequences of the sanctions would last longer and also affect the German economy. “But the sanctions also punish the people in Russia, through inflation or salary cuts.” They are an effective instrument because they show that Putin will ultimately have lost the war one way or the other, both morally and militarily.
But who is also specifically affected by the situation, by the war, you see every day in Germany when you look at the busloads full of refugees from Ukraine, said Katja Kipping, Berlin Senator for Integration, Labor and Social Affairs, who ended the program was switched on by Maybrit Illner on ZDF. “So far about 200,000 people have arrived in Berlin and there will be many more,” she said, “it will be the largest refugee movement since the end of the Second World War”. Berlin is currently very busy, and Kipping called on the federal government to create a legal and logistical basis in order to be able to deal with the situation. You know from 2015 what to expect, she concluded with a certain bitterness in her voice. (Teresa Vena)
